MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You have all, I think, seen a copy of the judgment. There is one error which I spotted in paragraph 34 in the fourth last line, the sentence beginning "It is in those circumstances difficult to see". It should be "how it could conceivably be said", rather than "would". I am grateful to you all for spotting some other typing errors. That is the judgment. So, I had better see what relief there should be.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, I hope your Lordship has seen a document which is called "Third Draft Order".
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I have the second. I am not sure if I have the third.
MR CLAYTON: Can I pass it up? Can I also explain that this order comes about -- I will take you through it in a moment. Just in terms of where we are --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You have obviously passed it round.
MR CLAYTON: I have, but unfortunately some people have seen it late. It reflects discussions that I have had with Mr Petchey for Tower Hamlets, but no one else. Can I just explain the structure of the order first of all? The order recites at the outset various matters, including the application for the declarations, which is in the skeleton. The quashing order has been basically designed, certainly in relation to Tower Hamlets, to reflect the actual council resolution. I am not sure, actually, looking at Hackney, that due to time, whether that has been done. It may be preferable for the order to precisely reflect the resolution. And, as I say, there has not been enough time. The third part, part (iii), the declaration there, is to reflect the terms of your Lordship's judgment in terms of paragraphs 37 and 38 of the judgment.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Did you say (iii)? Do you not mean (ii)?
MR CLAYTON: I am sorry, I am getting increasingly short sighted. It is (ii). So the position, my Lord, really comes to this. In our respectful submission --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Would it be to resolve not to take any course of action?
MR CLAYTON: It should be. Just dealing with the issues of principle first. In our respectful submission, the appropriate quashing orders are the ones that we have set out, subject to the Hackney order being more precisely formulated to reflect the resolution. And in terms of the suggestion about a declaration, the reason why we do that is that there may be -- it would just facilitate a clarity, given the general position we are in, if the court made a declaration to reflect the terms. I am not sure I have to say anything more than that in relation to the order itself.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I am slightly concerned about the quashing order that you seek against LUL. I am not sure that the court necessarily has jurisdiction to make a quashing order against LUL. It is not a public body, is it?
MR CLAYTON: Leaving that --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It may be that an injunction is an appropriate remedy for the short term, but I do not think a quashing order is the correct --
MR CLAYTON: In terms of -- there are a number of different points one can make about that. I think -- cutting through all of it, the position is that I have had discussions with Mr Barnes --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: All you want is either an undertaking or an order which holds the position so that London Underground will not start any demolition work until there is a decision by each authority not to enforce. Obviously, if there is a decision to enforce, they will have to go through the --
MR BARNES: We would accept that.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Yes.
MR CLAYTON: In this case I accept that. That is what I was going to say. I think you --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Do you want an order, Mr Barnes, or do you want to --
MR BARNES: We would prefer an order from the court.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: As I say, I do not think it should be in the form of a quashing order. If you could re-draft that to make it in the form of an interim injunction.
MR BARNES: Yes. The interim injunction already granted be continued.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That may be the best decision.
MR BARNES: (inaudible) the decision of the authorities either to enforce or not to enforce. If they decide to enforce, then it goes into the planning procedures. It they decide not to enforce, then that is the end of it. That is our position.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That may be the sensible way of doing it, simply to direct that the existing injunction be extended, or to repeat it as part of this order.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, we would be content with that. So far as we are concerned, we would then just simply have the quashing orders against the LPAs, and the declaration which --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: The full terms of the declaration, there may be some argument about that.
MR CLAYTON: I understand that.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: But subject to that -- we will argue about costs shortly -- it seems in principle unobjectionable. I do not know who wants to go next.
MR HARRISON: I have only just seen this third draft order, 30 seconds ago.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Whether it substantially changes what (inaudible).
MR HARRISON: I did not see the second draft order either. Straight away, item (b), on the second page, the London Borough of Hackney's decision was not, in fact, to refrain from a course of action, but to give discretion to officers to refrain if appropriate section 106 obligations were forthcoming. It may simply be better to refer to the decision on 1st April 2002 or to put the full wording in.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I appreciate that Hackney's decision was more founded on what I have found to be correct. On the other hand, I still think -- as you can appreciate -- that the council ought to be satisfied of the 106 conditions before, rather than leaving it to the discretion of the officers.
MR HARRISON: The second point is this. It relates to what may happen hereafter. Your Lordship has not yet, as I understand it, given permission either to amend the claim form to declarations --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: If I have not, I will do so now.
MR HARRISON: In that case, that takes my second point away.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It is really a non-point because in theory you do not need a declaration. You can simply rely on the terms of the judgment. But it is obviously convenient to have a declaration because that is something which everyone can focus on and know exactly what they have to do or not have to do.
MR HARRISON: Subject to those points, those are my submissions, although I would like to spend a little more time just reading the actual wording of the declaration.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You can come back if you want to.
MR HARRISON: I am grateful.
MR PETCHEY: If your Lordship has discretion to make a declaration in terms of (i) and --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You are happy with those, are you?
MR PETCHEY: It is clear from the terms of your Lordship's judgment. We are happy that that declaration should be made if your Lordship feels it appropriate.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You are happy with the terms of that?
MR PETCHEY: Yes.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is no problem then. Yes, Mr Barnes?
MR BARNES: Obviously, there should be in the circumstances an order which quashes in appropriate words the present decision of the local planning authorities. We say nothing as to that. As regards our position and the order relating to our decision to begin demolition, I hope that would be, as I have just indicated, superseded by the continuation of the interim injunction.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Whether you simply direct the interim be continued or repeat it --
MR BARNES: Our only reason for that is this. As your Lordship appreciated, following the judgment of Ouseley J it was five months before we got decisions, and, if necessary, if there is an interim injunction continued or given, we can always apply to the court to discharge.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Indeed.
MR BARNES: I am not saying we need to, but --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It is obviously -- I have made it clear, I think, in my judgment that it is desirable -- I will put it no higher -- that the matter should be dealt with as speedily as possible. And having regard to what I know are the attitudes of the local authorities, I would be surprised if they do not deal with the matter exceedingly speedily, or as speedily as they are able to, having regard to their obligations under the law as I have declared it to be.
MR BARNES: My Lord, I am grateful for that. I think we have dealt with that. The remaining matter really is one of principle. The order of the court will, therefore, in the appropriate words be quashing the two decisions of the local planning authorities. The question is: should the order of the court further make precise declarations as to what is to happen? Whether it does or not, your Lordship's judgment stands as the law, subject to any appeals and so forth. The question is: should that be repeated in the form of declaratory relief or not? Our submission is that it is unnecessary to do that because the law which the authorities and ourselves and everyone now has to observe is set out in your Lordship's judgment. Why, therefore, should one repeat it particularly?
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I must confess that I am slightly concerned with the wording in any event, with an undertaking -- I am not quite sure whether that is an appropriate word -- containing conditions in respect of environmental effects et cetera. I mean, it seems to me that it is, as you say, quite clear that what I have said ought to be considered. It is up to the authorities to decide what conditions are appropriate. I suppose, God forbid, if they were thought to have fallen down on the extent of the conditions, someone might challenge.
MR BARNES: The declaration will not help that.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It will not help that, and I do not think it is desirable that it should be tightened. I would be prepared to say that it would be unlawful for the boroughs to resolve not to take enforcement action without there being in place a section 106 agreement.
MR BARNES: I would not object, but if your Lordship -- the only difficulty in that is a very technical one. Under section 106, what technically is given is what is called "planning obligations". You can give those unilaterally.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Without there being -- in that case, if one wants a declaration, the best thing would be to use that form of words, without there being in place --
MR BARNES: A planning obligation under section 106.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: -- sufficient planning obligation under section 106. I would be inclined to leave it at that because I do not think that it would be appropriate, in my view at the moment, to narrow it in any way. The judgment, I hope, is clear as to what is required.
MR BARNES: Indeed. I am grateful. On that point -- there may be other points -- I would leave my submissions at that.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, the only reason why, in fact, we sought -- I am afraid I have not actually looked at this particular document as fully as I was looking at the other things. If I could just take your Lordship to the judgment. The reason for the declaration was really what is contained in paragraph 37 of your Lordship's judgment. It is the second and third lines, consideration of those conditions. We thought it would be valuable if that was reflected in a declaration. It is a matter for your Lordship.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I do not think it is necessary. That is the declaration. What should be contained is, as I say, a matter for the authorities. They know that that is the gap, at least that is the apparent gap at the moment which has not yet been settled. But, of course, there will be other conditions which deal with some of the other matters, which are still necessary conditions under the old planning permission.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, in the light of that, I do not want to press the point further. Can I suggest that all counsel, having heard the discussions, simply -- a draft is produced which reflects --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That would be sensible. You can pass it by me. I am sure there will be no problem.
MR CLAYTON: Can I then move on to the next topic? It is costs. I hope your Lordship has seen a brief written submission from us.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: On costs? Yes, I have. Let me just find it. I had it this morning. I am sure I have it somewhere.
MR CLAYTON: I will pass one up.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I have it. I also have one from Hackney.
MR CLAYTON: We hope we have taken a realistic approach to this. Basically, what it comes to is this. We obviously accept that we lost on the issue which was addressed by written submissions. The point we make, which is in accordance with the views now expressed in the CPR, is that a partial costs order is appropriate. At paragraph 4 of the skeleton we set out some of the issues. One can go into it in rather more detail, but the long and the short of it, in our respectful submission, is that on -- certainly, the most important and also the lengthy submissions, I am thinking, for example, of the Hackney planning commission, which, if I may say so, took a lot of time over a weekend to --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I can believe that.
MR CLAYTON: So, what our submissions to your Lordship are in relation to that, is that we are entitled to a substantial bulk of the costs. At paragraph 5 I have suggested 80 per cent, but I qualify that by saying, of course, it really is a matter for discretion. I just thought, since I might be asked what I thought it was, I would actually --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You pitch it high. It is the old quantum argument, is it not?
MR CLAYTON: Maybe so. The other point -- there are two other points, I suppose, which are of some slight importance to make. The first is in terms of allocations of costs between the respective defendants. In our respectful submission, that really is a matter for the cost judge. It is not -- otherwise I will leave it to your Lordship because there is obviously plenty of --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It does not worry you. All you want is someone to pay. This is not a case where any of them are likely to go bust.
MR CLAYTON: No.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: At least, that is what we hope.
MR CLAYTON: I think what we would like, my Lord, is this. We would want something which is easily enforceable. If your Lordship made a costs order against the defendants jointly and severally, they could then sort out their respective contributions.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That may be a way. We will see.
MR CLAYTON: What I am anxious to avoid doing, particular complications because of the way the legal aid system now works, about how one is supposed to collect the costs. I would like to avoid a situation where one would have to be looking to three separate defendants for --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I understand that. One wants to make it as simple as possible, to avoid unnecessary further costs in enforcement. I totally understand that and I am sure everyone would agree in principle that that is desirable. What I might do, assuming I was in your favour on the costs order at all, is to suggest that one of the parties should pay, and then should recover the balance from the others, ie there should be a lead payer. But that may not fall on receptive ground.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, I can quite see why there might be a certain amount of disagreement amongst the defendants about how the burden should fall, but from our point of view, assuming in my favour, we want to be able to enforce against one person because otherwise it is very difficult.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I see the force of that. I will consider that if it arises.
MR CLAYTON: The final point, for what it is worth, is that there seems to be a constant theme in this case that somehow because we are publicly funded, it is -- it is not a relevant consideration, as your Lordship will know, and we just thought it worthwhile to try ---
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: We will need the usual certificate, which you can obviously have in any event.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, unless there are any specific points, our submission to your Lordship is -- which we expressly accept -- that, obviously, how the partial costs order should be allocated is very much a matter for your Lordship. But we do say that -- one way of testing the position might be this, I suppose. Had the environmental statement not been put in, and therefore had that whole issue not been ventilated, what would be a proper costs order in those circumstances? And then given that it was, how should that be discounted to reflect it?
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I suppose you can say that if you had not sought the interim injunction, the deed would have been done.
MR CLAYTON: Yes. We certainly needed -- perhaps I could just pick that up. Although the way in which the case has developed before your Lordship from LUL has been clear, the fact -- and it may be that they were simply anxious to get the matter in court -- was that we were put in a position where we did need to seek immediate relief.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I appreciate that the point on which you eventually succeeded was a point which had not really been raised very substantially before. Equally, the substantial compliance point was one which had not been particularly foreshadowed. On the other hand, that is not perhaps altogether surprising because the whole case came on at a considerable rush, for obvious reasons.
MR CLAYTON: I might make two points about that. Firstly, we would say that the main contest was about whether there was an issue of the Directive --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You have certainly won on that.
MR CLAYTON: We would also make this point. Although the case came on quickly, your Lordship had the advantage -- or disadvantage, depending on how one looks at it -- of seeing copious advice from counsel. So these issues were --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: But you know as well I do, Mr Clayton, that quite often until you actually come to court and the issues get discussed and crystallised, you do sometimes miss the point which turns out to be an important one.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, I entirely accept that. My only point in response is to say that whilst, obviously, that is true -- and indeed seems to have occurred in this case -- there is a limit on how far the defendants can press that because they had plenty of time to think about it and, indeed, to put the evidence in, but they chose not to for one reason or another.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I follow that.
MR CLAYTON: Unless there is anything else?
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I will come back to you, obviously, if there is. Yes, Mr Barnes?
MR BARNES: In my submission -- I speak, of course, only for London Underground -- we should not be ordered to pay any costs in relation to this matter. In relation to us, there should be no order for costs against anybody, for these reasons. In the first place, we have, as a body, done nothing wrong in the light of your Lordship's judgment. We have offered a section 106 obligation, and still do so. We have offered to provide any information, other than a full environmental impact assessment, which has been required by the boroughs, and have done so since the beginning.
The main theme or thesis of the case against us on behalf of Mr Prokopp is that it would be unlawful for the boroughs not to enforce, and for us to proceed without an environmental impact assessment. On that point, at the end of the day, we have succeeded, and, in my submission, that is the substantial point.
My Lord, the only things that are quashed, and properly to be quashed, are the decisions of the local planning authorities. Although, of course, we have assisted in those decisions in providing information, ultimately that is matter for them and they must speak for themselves in relation to costs on that.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: True, but I think one is entitled, is one not, to look at the realities of the situation. The situation was created by an error on the part of LUL initially.
MR BARNES: Undoubtedly, my Lord.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That was the lapse of the planning permission. The question then was how to try to get out of the problem created by that error? You sought to persuade the LPAs that there was no need for any enforcement because of the building point, ie that the planning permission was still in existence. That failed. I appreciate that you say that as a matter of fact that was a wrong decision, but it is not one that could be challenged before me.
You then sought to persuade -- and successfully -- the LPAs that they could deal with the matter speedily by not enforcing and accepting conditions under section 106. It seems to me in those circumstances that since it was really you who had the major interest -- although I appreciate they also had an interest -- in ensuring, if they could, that this matter went ahead, it is artificial to exclude you from any liability -- if there is any liability -- for the situation that has resulted.
MR BARNES: We were major participants in bringing the situation which exists today into being. It is plainly so and it would be absurd to suggest that that is not so. My only point is that ultimately we are but persuaders. The statutory decision has to be made by the local planning authority.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I understand that.
MR BARNES: But undoubtedly we were major players in bringing that about.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: One has to some extent to adopt a rather broad brush approach on costs, as you will appreciate. I think most people, quite honestly, would consider it unfair that the whole costs -- if there was an order of costs -- should fall on the local authorities in the situation that has arisen. I personally think it would be unfair too.
MR BARNES: I have made my point. I will leave that to your Lordship ultimately.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: What is the appropriate division is another matter.
MR BARNES: I put (a) what is the amount of the costs; should it be the whole of the claimant's costs, and (b) what division should there be of the amount? I have made my point.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Do you have any submissions on whether there should be an order at all and, if so, what?
MR BARNES: My initial point is whether there should be an order at all.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Look at it more generally now.
MR BARNES: If there is to be an order against the defendants in the proceedings --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Looking at it globally.
MR BARNES: We are, in a sense, all participants in it. It is difficult to say. We put our point of view, as any landowner and developer does. The planning authorities took their decision. I would find it very difficult as a matter of submission to say that it is 33 per cent and not 43 per cent. So much has to be broad brush at this stage.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: This is the problem. It does. I think that is right. Assuming it is appropriate to make a global order for costs, and looking at it, as I say, globally at the moment, what proportion or what amount of the claimant's costs do you say would be appropriate?
MR BARNES: We should say in those circumstances, there being three defendants, we should not pay more than one third.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: No, no. You, I appreciate. I mean assuming he is entitled to an order for costs.
MR BARNES: My learned friend says 80 per cent. I say that is wrong. It should be more in the order of 20 or 25 per cent, something of that sort. But the remaining -- I am a pretty poor haggler. Could I mention one point on it? It is not right to say that we did not take the point in relation to substantial compliance. We took the primary point that there was no development consent because it was a negative decision. We lost on that, certainly. What we did is paragraph 80 of our long argument. It is a single sentence. May I just read it? It says:
"It is therefore submitted that as regards the Directive and the law of enforcement of planning control, a combination of the provisions of the 1990 Act and the regulations and principles of law, does ensure that, in the words of Lord Hoffmann in Bartby(?), substantial compliance with the Directive is achieved."
So we had, prior to coming to court, taken the point.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Are you flagging up?
MR BARNES: I agree that we are flagging, but not as prominent as our argument.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Well, I think in fairness, Mr Barnes, you have, perhaps, received judicial inclination that that particular point might be a good one.
MR BARNES: That is an advocate's job.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It occurs to me -- I remember some years ago when one went to the cinema there was a standard advertisement for a firm of bookmakers: "You win when you lose with Margolis(?) and Ridley". You would say that you are somewhat in that position.
MR BARNES: My Lord, on that, I continue to make the submission -- and your Lordship will consider it -- that we should not be obliged to pay any costs. If there is to be an order for costs in general principal in favour of the claimant against the defendants, I say it should not be more than the order of a quarter, 20 to 25 per cent. I agree with my learned friend that legal aid has nothing to do with it. We are on common ground there. As between the defendants, I submit that we should not be obliged to pay more than one third, if we have to pay anything.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Mr Barnes, Mr Clayton's suggestion that if there is to be an order, there should be a single person to enforce against, and that person can then claim the necessary contributions from the co-defendants, how does that strike you?
MR BARNES: That is reasonable, my Lord, since we are all going to be in existence for some time, despite the activities of Rail Track in the past.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Do you mind being the lead?
MR BARNES: I do not think we do, my Lord, no. As long as it is understood that we will get our --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Of course. You will get such contribution as I consider to be appropriate.
MR HARRISON: I think, my Lord, you have my submissions on costs.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Yes, I do.
MR HARRISON: If I can summarise them by saying that the reality as we say is set out at paragraphs 4, 5, 6 and 7. We were joined late to these proceedings. We have had our decision quashed on very narrow grounds, which were not in any way foreshadowed. We say that we are in the position of the bookmaker in the advertisement, that on the costs, although your Lordship has quashed our decision, we should be regarded as the successful party.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You are, I suppose, the lesser party in the sense that the viaduct is not in your part of the yard. And you did consider more the substantial compliance point. You did not do it directly --
MR HARRISON: We took matters more in the round.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That may be.
MR HARRISON: We stress particularly, as I set out in our submissions, that had Mr Prokopp come to us before the proceedings started and said, "Simply consider what is going to happen to the viaduct and then I will be satisfied" -- of course, he was not going to do that, but if he had -- and, of course, your Lordship has postulated that -- it was inconceivable that we would have said we were not going to do that. We would have been perfectly prepared to take those matters into account. Because throughout these proceedings --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: But you should have done anyway. It is what I have said.
MR HARRISON: My Lord, yes. But taking the broad brush approach, our involvement in these proceedings has been, in what we see as the public interest, to keep the ELLX project alive. In our submission, we have succeeded on that and should be regarded as the successful party for CPR part 44. I do not think I can add on that principal point. If there is going to be a division between the defendants -- one obviously does not want to squabble in court -- we do say that we should be seen as very much the minor party in all of this, largely for the reasons which I have set out in my basic submission.
MR PETCHEY: My Lord, we are in a similar position to the London Borough of Hackney, but there are differences in essence. A major issue in the proceedings was whether a decision not to take enforcement action was a development consent, and the London Borough of Tower Hamlets has taken a clear view about that.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: The borough accepted that it was.
MR PETCHEY: In that context, my Lord, the substantial compliance issue arose. We flagged up in our skeleton something the court would have to address, and we made helpful submissions on that matter when it came to it after the conclusion of the hearing. Of course, we have lost on a very narrow issue, so that, as my learned friend says, the project clearly goes on. On that basis, it would be inappropriate, in my submission, for any substantial order for costs to be made against us.
Your Lordship has floated in argument the thought that one way through all this could be that there be no order for costs at all. That your Lordship has considered. That would be one way of addressing this matter.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It would be one way from your point of view, I do not doubt.
MR PETCHEY: All I am saying principally is that I should recover some part of my costs from Mr Prokopp. One sees this argument the other way, and your Lordship considers that. If your Lordship is going down that path, one way of reflecting that sort of broad justice is to --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I think what you are entitled to submit -- I will come back to Mr Barnes, perhaps, on this if necessary -- is that the major arguments were arguments that you did not support. That is the --
MR PETCHEY: The development consent issue was a major, major issue in the two days that we had. Also in that was the question of the planning permission that was not a planning --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: The Hackney planning permission. That was a good try. Again, you should not be saddled with the costs relating to that.
MR PETCHEY: If one is looking at responsibility between LUL and the planning authorities, we say that the major responsibility lies with LUL.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I see the force of that. Mr Barnes?
MR BARNES: I resist that most strongly, particularly against the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. The decision of Ouseley J was given on 8th ;November. It was five months, apart from a few days, when ultimately this borough decided what to do. It is, in my submission --
MR CLAYTON: That is not very impressive.
MR BARNES: -- scarcely a creditable performance for a local planning authority, and that ought to be taken into account. In relation to the other matters, who has won on various points and so forth, one can argue and say, "Have we scored five goals, and the other scored four?"
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You have to do that a bit now.
MR BARNES: At the end of the day, surely it is for your Lordship's overall view how to divide it. It is not an exact arithmetical basis.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It never can be.
MR BARNES: Apart from that observation in relation to the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, I do not have anything further.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Feel rebuked, Mr Clayton.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, your Lordship has been confronted with two unsurprising submissions. Firstly, that really we should not be getting anything at all. Secondly, it is nothing --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You will get something.
MR CLAYTON: And also that it is nothing to do with me particularly, it is all someone else's fault. But what I would like to make clear are two particular points. One is that your Lordship's decision that the regulations do not correctly implement the Directive is, in fact, an important matter to be resolved. The point that I understood the London Borough of Tower Hamlets to be making is that they, of course, took that view as well as us. The second point is -- and I am now just reading from the commentary which I briefly referred to --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Which page is that?
MR CLAYTON: It is page 995 of the current edition.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Is it volume 1?
MR CLAYTON: Yes. If your Lordship -- it is the commentary at 4431, which really -- do you have the old one? I have the old one as well and someone has kindly lent me the new one. The old one is at 937.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: What is the date of the new one?
MR CLAYTON: The autumn one is the old one, which I have. There is a new one called 2003. The old one is at 937. That is the one I actually have.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Yes?
MR CLAYTON: The basic point is that it is clear from reading the first four paragraphs of that commentary that effectively this is made very clear.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: One thing that seems to me to be clear from this is that, so far as the Hackney planning permission is concerned, that is an issue which obviously involved you or your side in specific work, and one should reflect that against LUL. I have no doubt that that issue -- what proportion it will form in due course is another matter, but that issue, I think, LUL will have to pay for.
MR CLAYTON: The only point I am really making is the last sentence of the third paragraph, that the issue-based approach requires the court to consider it issue by issue. Your Lordship effectively made that point to my learned friend. I accept that one has to look at the thing in the round as well, but what I would say is that --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You cannot look at it in too much detail. It has, in the end, to be broad brush.
MR CLAYTON: I would make the point nonetheless -- and this is also borne out in the commentary -- that the fact that one has lost on a point -- I am not minimising its importance -- is not decisive either. This is no criticism of anyone, but when we got into figures the disparity seemed to be quite striking, and, in my respectful submission, if one looks at the balance of play, although obviously we did not succeed on everything, we did succeed on the two points of importance: the planning permission, and also the fact that the regulations do not correctly implement the Directive, which is a point of some substance. I have nothing further to add.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Thank you. As I have indicated in the course of argument, it is necessary, in deciding the appropriate proportion of costs that should be ordered to be paid, to adopt a somewhat broad brush approach. On the other hand, as a result of CPR 44.3, the court has to consider more carefully the issues which have been before the court, and how they have been decided. Here the main issue as to the application of the Directive in the circumstances has been lost by LUL. The boroughs essentially supported the approach that was adopted by the claimant. Mr Barnes, I think, accepts that so far as the Hackney planning issue is concerned, that was a matter which was raised by him. It was a matter which had to be investigated by the claimant. He lost on that issue, and that took, obviously, a substantial time.
What led to my decision in favour of the claimant in due course was a somewhat narrow one, namely that there had not been a full consideration and putting in place of the necessary conditions in accordance with section 106. But the issue which was of real importance to the claimant was the issue as to whether there had been substantial compliance because even though they won on the application of the Directive, if they lost on that issue, that win availed them very little. In those circumstances, one has success on a considerable number of the issues which were argued, but a failure on a very important -- and it may even be a decisive -- issue, looking at the whole history of the matter.
It seems to me in those circumstances that it is clearly right that there should be an order for costs in favour of the claimant, but that it should be a proportion only of their costs. Having regard to the importance of the various issues on which they won and lost, it seems to me, doing the best I can, that the appropriate order would be one that they receive half their costs.
Now, from who? I am quite satisfied that the major contributor must be London Underground. I appreciate, as Mr Barnes says, that they have not done anything which has resulted in the need for the decision to be quashed. On the other hand, they have clearly done a lot to raise the issues on which the claimant has succeeded, and indeed they have taken the lead in those issues. It seems to me that the appropriate order is that they pay 90 per cent of the amount that is ordered, with the balance of 10 per cent to be divided between the two boroughs. That means that it is obviously sensible that there should be an order that the whole of the costs that I have ordered to be paid should initially be paid by London Underground, and that they should then receive the 10 per cent contribution from the boroughs.
Now, Mr Petchey and Mr Harrison, I am inclined to think that the fair thing, probably, is to say that each of you pay 5 per cent, 50/50. If you want to quarrel with that, either of you, now is the time.
MR HARRISON: I shall take instructions. We do not wish to quarrel with that.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: In that case you will contribute your proportion as to 50 per cent each, and LUL will obtain those sums from you. But, as I say, the primary order will be that LUL will pay all the costs against the defendants.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, may I move to the next matter? In a sense it is foreshadowed by your Lordship's observations about the importance of the point that was lost. My Lord, we do have an application for leave to appeal.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Can you appeal against a success?
MR CLAYTON: Yes. So that we are clear, it is actually leave to appeal against the refusal of the declarations which would have been awarded had the issues of substantial compliance --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You did not apply for a declaration.
MR CLAYTON: We did. I would invite your Lordship to look back at the order. The amended -- so that we are clear --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Just remind me about the rights of appeal where you have lost on an issue, but you have succeeded in obtaining the relief which you sought: namely, that the orders of the local authority should be quashed. Because you would not have got any order against London Underground in the public law proceedings. I have decided it is not appropriate for a private individual to obtain relief against a developer in these circumstances. The only appropriate relief is a temporary one.
MR CLAYTON: I actually did not say a lot about that because that seemed a practical way round the problem. But, in fact, your Lordship may recall the Hammerton judgment, which was brought by way of judicial review proceedings. It was accepted that in relation to the construction of (inaudible), LUL, which was a statutory body, was subject to judicial review, and indeed, Ouseley J expressed a view about that. It has not been a point taken at any stage --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That may or may not be right, but I still -- whether or not it is a public body -- have the gravest of doubts whether it is appropriate for a private individual to obtain relief against that sort of a body, where the Parliamentary process is that it can be dealt with through enforcement, which has its built-in safeguards which do not exist in judicial review.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, in relation to the point which I am making and leave to appeal, firstly, the mechanics of the appeal are premised on the declarations which are primarily against the public authorities, and I put them in the skeleton precisely because that eventuality has been covered. There is no objection in principle to an appeal proceeding where an important part of the case has been unsuccessful. One only need think of Barry (?), for example. Your Lordship may recall that in the case of Barry , the community care case, the judge at first instance decided that the reassessment should be made under the community case legislation because (inaudible) done properly, but the issue of principle, which was how they should be carried out, went to the Lords. In our submission, just to move on to the actual point, there is a real and important point involved in this case because the fact is that substantial compliance has only been argued successfully in one case. That case is radically different from the situation here, particularly because in the commission in Germany it was common ground -- which it is not here -- that all the requirements of the Directive had been met. My submission to your Lordship, really, comes to this. We would submit -- I am afraid I have not set out, but I am happy to do so, the various grounds why there is an argument about the prospect --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I can see that there is an argument. Of course there is.
MR CLAYTON: Beyond that, we would actually submit on the basis of the special reasons, because of public interest, because the question of substantial compliance is an important one. We would, in the natural course of things, look for some guidance from the ECJ because having spent, really, quite a lot of time --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Mr Clayton, what you are telling me sits ill with your express concern that this should go ahead without any unnecessary delay. If you are talking about the ECJ, that is a two year delay.
MR CLAYTON: Your Lordship is ahead of me, and I apologise. My point is not that we should be inviting your Lordship, and that is certainly not the point I am trying to make. The point I am, however, trying to make is that the issue of substantial compliance, which has only been considered in a single case which is very different from this one, is of real importance, and that --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It is a question of fact.
MR CLAYTON: Well, your Lordship did not treat it as a question of fact because your Lordship applied a number of legal tests.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Of course, there are legal tests which are clearly set out in Berkeley, and it is a question of applying them to the facts.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, your Lordship applied different tests in addition to Berkeley . That is one of the -- can I make that good? If your Lordship, for example, turns -- just on that part of it, if your Lordship looks, for example, at paragraph 32 of the judgment, the second sentence:
"The issue is one of balancing the benefits of the ELLX against any environmental damage to be caused by it and an endeavour to ensure that all reasonable steps are taken to keep such damage to a minimum."
That statement is very different, and indeed involves a balancing exercise, which is not the same as Lord Hoffmann's test.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is the whole purpose behind an EIA; at the end of it you identify the potential damage to whatever in the environment. You set out possible alternatives which would not cause, it is said, so much damage. Then you assess against the benefits in the proposed development the adverse effects, and you reach a conclusion based on all that information.
MR CLAYTON: That is the end process.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is all I am saying.
MR CLAYTON: With respect, my Lord, in fact it is important to note that there are three issues which would have been part of an environmental statement, and which would have been subject to consultation, where the House of Lords has said categorically that that purpose of consultation must be satisfied. Your Lordship has, in effect, foreshortened that analysis, and precisely because your Lordship has foreshortened the analysis -- I can demonstrate that in the next paragraph as well. It is always difficult, this sort of application. The short point is -- and the important one is -- that what one cannot say is that the decision in this case was dictated by the approach taken in Berkeley . Therefore, I do say that -- I can point to other instances of this, and I can perfectly understand why your Lordship has approached it in the round.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I follow that. It may be said that this is a slightly benevolent, if that is the right word, application of the Berkeley principle.
MR CLAYTON: Just putting it in that way, the point is, that being so, I think I can make that good by looking at other elements of the judgment. We do say -- and this is not, if I may say so, a point that can be made against us, without being pernickety, because the European Directive is there --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I know, Mr Clayton, but you know delay is a very important aspect of this, is it not?
MR CLAYTON: With respect, my Lord, whilst one quite understands why delay is an important aspect in the context of the project, it is difficult to identify, in terms of substantial compliance and the scope adumbrated before it by Lord Hoffmann, precisely where that concern, entirely understandable as it is, fits in the scheme. With respect, my Lord, our submission is -- and there really are quite a number of points we could make -- that by cutting through it in the way that your Lordship has to meet the urgency of the situation, that does not accurately reflect the Berkeley decision, and we would like the opportunity of testing that.
I would say -- and I have canvassed this as well, at least with Mr Barnes -- we would obviously accept that any appeal would have to be expedited, if there were an appeal, and, relatively confidently, that if there were an appeal, it would be expedited. Therefore, what we say to your Lordship is that, really, on the two separate grounds upon which permission is to be granted -- firstly, prospects, because we do say that the benevolent approach taken has done some distortion to the principles of Berkeley . Secondly, we say that in any event because the issue involved is one which goes to the heart of the application of a Directive and its effect on the UK, that it is an issue which is fit for the Court of Appeal to consider. Indeed, they might take the view, because of the unusual nature of the case, that it might be fit for the ECJ to consider. I am not suggesting that necessarily --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I should certainly hope not because then the project would simply disappear.
MR CLAYTON: I accept that. My own view, for what it is worth, is that it is quite possible for the higher courts to deal with this important issue without the need to make a reference.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Some of them will no doubt apply for a reference if they see that they are losing.
MR CLAYTON: Your Lordship will know that the circumstances in which references are granted now are rare because the courts discourage it.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I know. You see, Mr Clayton, you cannot get away from the reality, can you, that the listing has been on a specific basis that there is no need to preserve the balance of the (inaudible). That is what the relevant minister has decided.
MR CLAYTON: There are two difficulties, at least, with that proposition, probably more. First, the fact that it is listed means that there is an immediate practical problem, which your Lordship identified in paragraph 37 of the judgment, which is how do you preserve what is listed with what is not?
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Why do you not wait and see what the conditions are?
MR CLAYTON: The second point is -- and this is a point of some substance in law -- that the mere fact that a building is listed, and a decision is made not to list another part, does not mean that it falls outside of the scope of the Directive, or indeed the regulations.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: But it makes it rather difficult to argue that it is part of the cultural heritage that needs to be protected, if the decision is that it is not part of the cultural heritage.
MR CLAYTON: With respect, my Lord, if one looked at the logic of that, that would basically mean that it would be open in every case for a developer to say, "If the building has not satisfied listing requirements, then it is not meeting its cultural standards".
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is probably right in many cases in so far as the impact of the scheme on the cultural heritage is concerned. There may be other impacts which are important to take into account. But if the decision has been made that a particular building or series of buildings which are said to be going to be affected adversely by an development, and that it is part of a cultural heritage, and if there has been a positive decision that it is not to be regarded as part of the cultural heritage by the domestic body which has that responsibility, it seems to me exceedingly difficult to see how it could reasonably be suggested that it was -- assuming an environmental impact assessment was needed -- to be regarded as such. It makes a nonsense of the thing, does it not?
MR CLAYTON: One could test it in this way: is the fact that the town of Cambridge -- a point made by those instructing me, who reside there -- is listed mean that it could be knocked down because --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Mr Clayton, you can always use absurd examples.
MR CLAYTON: But there is a real point, which is that, in fact, although I ;accept --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Are the Cambridge (inaudible) listed, as a matter of interest?
MR CLAYTON: It is a conservation area.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That would be in itself a possible reason. But this is not a conservation area. As I say, there was a specific decision that this was not worth preserving.
MR CLAYTON: But the point, my Lord, I would make, with respect, is that I quite accept that. But in my respectful submission the difficulty with it is that if -- as a proposition, the suggestion that listing a building takes it outside the scope of the --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It depends on the circumstances. I am looking at what happened here.
MR CLAYTON: In any event it comes within the scope of the Directive and regulations because it is a material asset. So it is not, in fact, confined solely to the point that I am making. But I would, with respect, suggest to your Lordship that you have applied (inaudible) with some vigour when it comes to dealing with substantial compliance. Whilst one quite understands the rationale for that, the fact is that the issue is one of some considerable importance, and in my respectful submission this is a matter which is fit to be dealt with by the Court of Appeal on an expedited basis. I am not sure I can add any more, but I would say that, in our respectful submission, the position is more than just arguable. We would, respecting as we do your Lordship's approach, invite your Lordship to see that --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You do not have to respect it.
MR CLAYTON: The point I am making is that there is room for other views --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Of course there is.
MR CLAYTON: -- and that the issue involved is one, as I say, of some importance, which goes beyond this case. Because the long and the short of it is that if substantial compliance in a long project can be achieved by reliance on -- as, in fact, in this case -- an environmental statement made ten years earlier, on the face of it, that is a slightly striking state of affairs.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It could have been, but for the chance that they failed to comply with what everyone accepts is a condition which has no real purpose, and the fact that it was decided that this was a single building as opposed to a number of buildings.
MR CLAYTON: It was not, with respect, accepted by everyone that the conditions did not have a purpose. Actually, they had a very important purpose.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: No doubt. But in due course its purpose disappears.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, you may recall, because I certainly do, that when I sought to point out to your Lordship that had a section 73 application been made, it would have raised much wider issues and conditions --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It would have raised other conditions, but not beyond other conditions. That is what the Act says. It is limited to conditions.
MR CLAYTON: Powergen says otherwise, and that is --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Powergen says that you can consider all other conditions or any other conditions. I do not think Powergen actually construes the Act contrary to the wording of the Act, does it? I know that the Court of Appeal has been innovative in certain respects, but I do not think it has yet rewritten that particular thing.
MR CLAYTON: The issue, my Lord, is that in Powergen , what they in fact said was that one had to visit the question of the variation in terms of the position that applied as at the time of variation.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You still look at conditions, and not at the principle of the planning permission itself.
MR CLAYTON: We were never disputing the principle. What we would have been dealing with -- the submission to your Lordship and in front of Ouseley J was that had the section 73 application been made, the (inaudible) would have been looked at, and that is the point.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Not necessarily because if I am right, it would not have been necessary.
MR CLAYTON: To step back, I accept your point about substantial compliance, but in terms of -- your Lordship began by saying it was a narrow point, the failure to list condition 21. In fact, it did mean that the --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I follow that, but all I am saying is that but for that, and but for the single building point, there would have been no argument whether this could have gone ahead.
MR CLAYTON: Obviously, that is right but, with respect, one can always say that of any case. But for the fact that we won on one point and then the court decided in our favour, we would not have been here. But that was what happened. And we cannot be faulted for the fact that we made a point in front of Ouseley J which succeeded, and that point was then confirmed by the local authority. So I accept that the route by which you arrived at it is fortuitous, but this could be the only case --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I fully recognise that.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, as I say, I am not sure I can improve on the submissions by repetition. But the point in a nutshell is that your Lordship has, in our respectful submission, taken the benevolent view of substantial compliance, effectively a very novel application to an exceptional principle which can be derived from one case only. Because it has such a narrow jurisprudential foundation, and because the point is, in our respectful submission, of some importance, there are matters which are fit for the Court of Appeal. I have nothing further to add.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Mr Barnes?
MR BARNES: My Lord, there is very little I can say on behalf of the defendant in relation to the appeal. The rules provide that your Lordship only give permission to appeal if your Lordship feels that there is a real prospect of success of the appeal.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Do you accept that there can be an appeal, even though they have won on a point on which they have not succeeded?
MR BARNES: In principle, yes. I think that is right because I think ;-- the way my learned friend put it is that he sought further declaratory relief, which he has not got, but he can say, "I should have got that and I have not got it in the light of your Lordship's judgment". I think that is probably the position in relation to that. Given that there is in principle the possibility of an appeal, should permission be given, of course, it is whether your Lordship thinks it has a real prospect of success. We, of course, simply uphold the reasoning behind your Lordship's judgment. It is not for me to reiterate our reasons for that. No one can take it any further.
The other ground is that there is some special reason, even if your Lordship felt that there was no reasonable prospect of success. I suppose the only one that could be put is the whole question of the relationship between the Directive and enforcement in this country. But on the other hand, they have won on that point.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: If there were any question of appeal, you would obviously cross-appeal on some of those issues. And if I thought it right to grant them leave on that point, I would obviously grant you leave to cross-appeal on the other points.
MR BARNES: I think the only thing I can say is that if your Lordship is to grant them leave, then we would seek leave to cross-appeal (a) on the relationship between development consent and the Directive and the decision not to enforce, and (b) also in relation to the principle to be applied in respect of what I call the "Hackney document".
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I am not sure I will give you leave on the Hackney document. I think you would have to persuade the Court of Appeal.
MR BARNES: In that case, we would have to persuade the Court of Appeal. The other point --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: The other point, I would certainly -- if I was minded to grant Mr Clayton leave, I would grant you leave to cross-appeal. I do not imagine he would object to that.
MR CLAYTON: No.
MR BARNES: So I think I will simply leave it as to whether your Lordship feels there is a realistic prospect of success or not. Obviously, if there is to be leave to appeal, we are both agreed it should be expedited and be on as quickly as possible.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is essential. Mr Harrison?
MR HARRISON: My Lord, I do not accept that the claimant has a right to appeal in this case. Can I take your Lordship to paragraph 52.013? It is page 1257, but I am not sure whether it will be that page in your Lordship's copy.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: 52.013? "Terminology used in this commentary"?
MR HARRISON: I am in the 2003 edition.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I am afraid you are ahead of me. Does anyone have a spare 2003 edition which I can borrow for the moment? Someone at the back has very kindly produced one.
MR HARRISON: It is page 1257.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You will get it back, do not worry. Thank you very much indeed.
MR HARRISON: It is the first paragraph on that page. I make the submission -- I would ask your Lordship to read that paragraph.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You need a declaration from me, do you not, before you can appeal?
MR HARRISON: My Lord, there is no declaration sought in the amended grounds of claim against Hackney or any other parties. Section 6 of those, where the details of remedy are set out --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Let me remind myself of --
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, can I cut through this just to remind -- because we are chasing hairs now. Look at the third draft order. It sets out in the recital the declarations and --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: These are what you sought, were they?
MR CLAYTON: Yes, they were the ones I sought in the skeleton. They were put in to protect ourselves from this very eventuality, which is that what would happen is that they, having been amended -- the claim form would set out the recital, those declarations would have been refused by your Lordship's order, and there is, therefore, something to appeal against.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I am not sure, because declaration A does not actually take you anywhere very much, does it? Because they are to take environmental information into consideration.
MR CLAYTON: With respect, my Lord, it is to decide against taking enforcement proceedings without first taking environmental information into consideration. That is the way which, on our case, leaving substantial compliance to one side, it would work. They would be obliged to do that. That is why the declaration was put in, because I appreciated that it was necessary to give effect to the submission. This is how one would give effect.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I understand.
MR CLAYTON: And your Lordship was against us. Fair enough, but the one thing I would emphasise is that it is not a strong point to say there is nothing to appeal against because the declarations were put in there for that purpose. No declaration has been granted. It is part of the order. That is the point.
MR HARRISON: My Lord, I did not interrupt my learned friend when he was on his feet, but there is nothing in the claim.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I was just going to say -- I did give leave to amend at some stage, did I not? I cannot remember.
MR HARRISON: That is why I sought to check that point when I first --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Where do I find the claim? Which bundle is it in?
MR CLAYTON: It is bundle 1, about page 16. It is not in the claim form, my Lord.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: There was an amended claim form.
MR CLAYTON: It was not in that either.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I did not give you leave to amend, to claim those declarations. I only gave you leave to raise the matters in the amended grounds. I said, rather cavalierly, this morning --
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, with respect --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: -- that I would give leave to amend, but I am not so sure about that now.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, it is a matter for your Lordship, but it is there, and --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It is only there because you now realise that you cannot appeal without it, and you have at the last minute sought leave to amend to include it.
MR CLAYTON: That, if I may say so, really is not fair. It was actually in the skeleton argument. It was in for a purpose, and the skeleton -- the case was done at some brisk pace, and there could not possibly, if I may say so, be an objection to seeking the amendment there and then, and to seek it now --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: To be fair, you would have got it if you had sought it.
MR CLAYTON: Yes. I am sure I raised it.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Mr Clayton, you are right. It is not a fair point against you. You would have got leave had you raised it. But the fact is that you did not, and what flows from that is another matter.
MR CLAYTON: I did, actually. I did specifically say, because I was worried about it.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Did you? I had forgotten.
MR CLAYTON: We are not concerned with matters --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It did not seem to be important at that stage.
MR CLAYTON: It did not. We just got on with the merits. The only reason I am being awkward is that of all the points, that one is really not the most attractive one.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That stings you.
MR CLAYTON: A bit, yes, because we did try and get it right.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Fair enough, I withdraw that one. Yes, Mr Harrison?
MR HARRISON: If your Lordship is giving leave for those declarations to be sought, then it is impossible --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: At this point, all the significance was not appreciated at the time. It is a fair comment that when we raised this issue in the argument, in his submissions, Mr Clayton -- indeed, you all assumed it was a live issue and might lead to some need to deal with it in the question of relief. Now, it was a defence, really, to the claim more than anything else, was it not? It was a matter raised by way of defence, which succeeded. I suppose in normal circumstances there would not be any need for a declaration to be sought in a negative form, it would merely be that that was a matter which was found against. So I think possibly the technical point is, or may be still, a valid one. Not because of anything done or not done by Mr Clayton, but merely because, as I say, this is a matter which was raised by way of defence, essentially. I would not have thought it necessary in Mr Clayton's position to seek a declaration that the defence was a bad defence. But I would not have foreseen, I think, in his position, the importance that might be attached to it in the circumstances.
MR HARRISON: My Lord, we are simply anxious to avoid unnecessary delay.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: This is what occurs to me. I do not know, obviously, what Mr Clayton's clients want to do, but the impression I get is that they are all raring to go further. Now, I cannot say that this is not a point which is arguable. It clearly is. But what concerns me is that if I were in those circumstances to say, "Go to the Court of Appeal", that inevitably builds in delay. It builds in delay on two grounds. First of all, they are going to have greater difficulty in getting legal aid to enable them to go to the Court of Appeal because the Legal Services Commission will no doubt say, "The judge has refused leave, you have to persuade us". Secondly, and more importantly, it provides a built-in delay because of the application to the Court of Appeal. It may be that if one wants expedition, and because the point clearly cannot be said not to be arguable, it might be more expeditious actually to grant leave to appeal. Even though I am very reluctant to do so, I am bound to say, and I do not think that it is -- I am quite satisfied that it is not desirable, and I am obviously persuaded that I am right. But I do recognise that the matter is arguable. I would put it on a very, very tight time limit.
MR HARRISON: Just on that issue of delay, my Lord. If our submission is correct, if it is not possible for appeal to be sought at this stage by the claimant --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is a matter which you can raise before the Court of Appeal, is it not?
MR HARRISON: Assuming for one moment that that is right, what would be the realities? The reality is that the London Borough of Hackney will seek to take a decision in accordance with your Lordship's guidance from the judgment.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: What I would suggest, seriously, is that -- it is going to take you, between you, a little bit of time to sort out what conditions are appropriate. Surely you can get on with that in the meantime, so that you have everything teed up by the time the Court of Appeal reaches its decision. Obviously, if the Court of Appeal decides I was wrong, and the whole matter has to go into the enforcement process or the planning process, I suppose on one view you will have done some work which has turned out to be wasted. But I would have thought between you it was much more sensible to approach it in that way, so you make use of the time before the Court of Appeal can deal with it.
MR HARRISON: My Lord, very much of that work has already been done.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I am sure that is right.
MR HARRISON: On the issue of timing, and judging between the two courses of action which are being considered, if there is no right of appeal -- as in my submission there is not -- then Mr Prokopp will have to decide again, and will have to ask himself again, whether it is appropriate and in the public interest to challenge any further decision by the London Borough of Hackney. He will have to persuade the Legal Services Commission that he --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is the other way of playing it, that you make your decision, and then they can challenge that if they wish. They would be in difficulties because they would have my decision in the way.
MR HARRISON: My Lord, yes. They would also have to persuade the Legal Services Commission that they were on appropriate grounds. That is the reasoning behind my submission. They are not made simply to try and upset Mr Clayton.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I fully understand that. It may be that I ought to look at these authorities on rights of appeal where --
MR HARRISON: My Lord, I am afraid I do not have that authority with me.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I see the force of Mr Clayton's submission. On the other hand, section 16 of the Act has to be followed. Mr Clayton, I was at the outset concerned -- and I admit that I have not looked it up myself -- as to the jurisdiction.
MR CLAYTON: Can I deal with that? If I may say so, this is -- no disrespect -- a false point. The declarations sought are not a defence of (inaudible), although actually I did discuss with Mr Petchey whether it might be sensible to have a declaration where there was no substantial compliance. But on reflection, it seemed to me that that was not necessary because the declarations which we did seek in the skeleton argument would be the appropriate way of reflecting a victory in front of your Lordship, because they would have had the effect of those declarations, which is why they were put in. They were put in for that very purpose because, obviously, we appreciated it was important in the event we came unstuck that there was something there to take further. But the refusal to make a declaration in principle clearly generates --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: A refusal to grant relief must be part of an order.
MR CLAYTON: That is where we are, with respect. I quite understand why importance is attached to this by the London Borough of Hackney, but it is not technically right. The fact is that when one has the order, one has the recital in the Crown Office case of the relief sought. You then have the orders your Lordship has made today. It is, therefore, clear that the relief sought precluded that -- just so we are absolutely clear, it is not defensive, it was actually that the declarations would have come into play if we had won. May I also say, and I hope -- I have discussed this with Mr Barnes and it did occur, certainly to me and, I think, to him, that if one was trying to deal with this speedily, the points that your Lordship has made in the course of argument were clear, because this case could get on really quite quickly. It is obvious that --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: There is nothing else. All the papers are here.
MR CLAYTON: Absolutely. It is also obvious that we would get a quick listing. I have discussed with Mr Barnes, if we did get leave to appeal, obviously it would include his points that the Directive was not breached at all. I quite accept that.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I think on reflection, if I am persuaded that it should -- even though I think nothing of the Hackney point, it would be more sensible to give him leave to raise all the points so that the whole thing can be dealt with --
MR BARNES: We may or may not take it, my Lord, at the end of the day, but if we technically have leave --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I think it would be sensible to let -- otherwise you get possible built-in delays, although I suspect the Court of Appeal in that situation would deal with it as a leave and hearing to follow, if leave was granted.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, I would respectfully submit that if one looks at the criteria, which I am going to invite you to turn up now, for permission to --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: If there is jurisdiction, I think I am persuaded that in the circumstances of this case, albeit with a considerable reluctance, that actually the speediest thing is to grant leave to appeal and make it clear that it should be dealt with as speedily as possible. I will create a timetable. But I still have to hear Mr Petchey, if he wishes to make submissions on this point.
MR PETCHEY: I am very concerned, obviously, my Lord, about delay. What we are concerned about is that your Lordship takes the view that there is no jurisdiction. The matter then goes back to Tower Hamlets, termination is made. That then is challenged and then the thing comes back to the Court of Appeal.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I cannot stop anybody seeking to take any proceedings they see fit to take, but I would have thought that if my judgment stands, the chances of any challenge to a future action are nil. They can try, but they will get short shrift. The only danger, if the Court of Appeal does not deal with the matter now, is that someone will say, "I accept I cannot get leave from the Administrative Court, but I am going to apply to the Court of Appeal when I am refused".
MR PETCHEY: In which case, then, the jurisdictional point becomes particularly important because --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Yes and no.
MR PETCHEY: If it be the case that there is no jurisdiction, then --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: What do you say on jurisdiction?
MR PETCHEY: Historically, the people would just refer to Lake v Lake (?) and say that that is it. But, of course, that decision has been whittled away in various ways, and one is reminded by Lord Steyn (inaudible). The generality would be that this would not be a point that would attract the court in determining what the merits of the question were.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Surely if I were persuaded that it is at least arguable that there is jurisdiction, and were to grant leave, that point is a point that you could raise before the Court of Appeal, and the Court of Appeal will decide. If the Court of Appeal decided there was no jurisdiction, they would immediately throw the appeal out. But I can see that it might be that the parties would think that it was desirable to get the Court of Appeal's decision to avoid any future attempt to litigate the matter to the Court of Appeal.
MR PETCHEY: That is right, my Lord.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: So it may be -- obviously, if the Court of Appeal has no jurisdiction, it has no jurisdiction. But that is a matter for that court, I think. I am disinclined at the moment to enter into that argument. I see very much the force of what Mr Clayton says, and, as you rightly point out, the Lake v Lake approach has been somewhat modified. One does look at the substance, and the substance is that they have lost on what, on any view, may be the decisive point for them. It was the decisive point because they have won on the application of the Directive.
MR PETCHEY: I would much rather persuade your Lordship that this is not an appropriate case for the matter to be pursued further.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: You are perfectly entitled to make that submission, but the difficulty is, I would have thought, that it is hard to say that this is not a point which is arguable because there is a paucity of authority. It is really applying Berkeley. Berkeley itself explains the commission and Germany, and I think that it is unarguable that I have, to some extent, applied Berkeley in a benevolent fashion. It seems to me that in the circumstances of this case it was right. I would not have done it otherwise.
MR PETCHEY: Your Lordship has taken the view that this was a technicality which should not succeed, and that is really at the heart of it, in my submission.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is absolutely right. But the trouble is that Berkeley was, in one sense, a technicality because the information was there, although you had to grub around to find it, and actually at the end of the day Lady Berkeley failed anyway.
MR PETCHEY: There are obviously two ways of looking at the Berkeley case.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Planning permission was eventually granted.
MR PETCHEY: Another way of looking at that case --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Collins J approved it and the Court of Appeal upheld it.
MR PETCHEY: A very important principle was their -- but your Lordship has the point. I do not think there is anything further I can say to persuade your Lordship one way or the other.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Mr Barnes, is there anything you want to say about jurisdiction?
MR BARNES: Nothing. I think your Lordship can probably appreciate that in terms of timing, we can see the timing benefits of, in a sense, permission being given.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That is rather what I was coming to. Obviously, the jurisdiction point will have to be -- indeed, the court, if in doubt about it, would have to go to its own motion because it cannot decide matters over which it has no jurisdiction. I think I am persuaded that it is probably in the interests overall of everyone if I did that.
MR BARNES: As one knows, your Lordship's jurisdiction is to give or not to give permission. The giving of permission does not mean that an appeal necessarily follows. There are all sorts of -- the Legal Services Commission, and so forth. The only point I make is the interim situation as regards to the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. Because your Lordship gives permission to appeal, in my submission it should not mean in any way that the planning authorities in the meantime do not fully implement your Lordship's present decision.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It would obviously be foolish not to go ahead with deciding what the appropriate conditions are, so that the whole thing is teed up and ready, should the Court of Appeal uphold me.
MR BARNES: It will help the Court of Appeal, if nothing else.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I would urge you and the two boroughs, mainly Tower Hamlets, I suppose, to get on with things so that it is all ready to go.
MR BARNES: We will.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It is in the interests of the three of you that that should happen.
MR HARRISON: Can your Lordship clarify that the costs leave to appeal applies to all three defendants.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Yes, of course it does, in so far as you need it. As far as I am concerned, and obviously it is a matter for the Court of Appeal if you raise other matters, but you are entitled, each of you, to raise any point which you argued before me by way of cross-appeal, or whatever, even though I am bound to say that on, for example, the Hackney point, I would not normally have granted leave. I think it is, frankly, a point that has no prospect of success whatever. It is silly of me not to let you raise everything that you think it is right to raise before the Court of Appeal without giving any argument as to whether you should be able to or not. Now, the timescale.
MR CLAYTON: My Lord, I have provisionally discussed this with Mr Barnes. Seven days to lodge the notice of appeal --
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: That seems to me to be appropriate.
MR BARNES: I think technically we need a notice as well.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Yes, you do. If you both do it within seven days.
MR CLAYTON: I will obviously write a letter to the Lord Justices setting out the urgency in some detail.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: Your best bet, I suspect, is -- whoever has taken over -- it is still Master Venne, is it not? You should get in touch with him directly. That, I think, is usually the first sensible step.
MR CLAYTON: He always says you have to write to a Lord Justice.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: I would have thought to the Master of the Rolls. Do whatever you have to do. You have my blessing in the sense that I take the view that it is, for obvious reasons, very important that this matter be decided as soon as possible. I hope the Court of Appeal will be able to decide it within the month.
MR CLAYTON: Unless there is anything else, I just wanted to thank your Lordship on behalf of all of us for the fact that you have dealt with the case so speedily when you did and, indeed, apologise for the length of time taken this morning.
MR JUSTICE COLLINS: It gave me some work over my vacation. Thank you all very much.